Disciple of INDYCAR Weblog

November 17, 2011

The Indy Car Anti-Oval Witch Hunt Continues Unabated

Filed under: The Disciple Blogs — Disciple of INDYCAR @ 12:40 am

In a Speed TV column by Marshall Pruett in which he interviewed Sebastien Bourdais, the ongoing cart holdover propaganda campaign to purge the ‘unified’ Indy Car Series of all 1.5 mile ovals was reinforced in an over-the-top way.

Right off the bat we were set up for wailing ahead:

-‘Pack Racing’ is evil.

-‘Close racing on 1.5 mile ovals’ is evil.

Sebastien offered: ‘Before, I had big reservations about the one-and-a-half [mile ovals] and now I think we will never see that type of racing again. That takes a big chunk of the risk out of the equation and makes everything a lot better. After what happened, I don’t think we can go back to the way it used to be.’ What is this ‘we’ nonsense, Sebastien? You know, I really do not care what Euro-centric road racers think about Indy Car ovals.

‘At the end of the day, what we’ve not seen on the one-and-a-half [mile ovals] is racing. It’s [an aerodynamic] drag contest. Oval racing should be about drivers driving cars at the limit.’

There is a hell of a big difference between the positioning being attempted with the reality of oval racing. ‘Pack racing’ does not necessarily equal ‘close racing.’ One of the few valid points Bourdais laments is the more or less equal racing that results when all the equipment is the same. The high point of Indy Cars on ovals in recent years regularly unfolded at places like Texas and Chicagoland. Then again, the cars were not equal (at one time the IRL featured three chassis and multiple motors) and the close racing we saw was not exactly ‘pack racing.’ Yet here we are, approaching 2012, and the same owners who also foster such whacko beliefs are crying poverty about new, more evolved equipment. They managed to cry enough to delay aero kits a year and are paying double for the same old tires. Other than motors, everyone will continue driving the same cars. Perhaps Sebastien ought to be whining at owners and not Indy Car.

Sebastien ‘wants Texas replaced with a smaller oval.’ Actual Indy Car fans do not. That would be stupid. We want Texas SUPPLEMENTED with smaller ovals. Here’s an idea…you do not want to race at Texas? DON’T SHOW UP. Easy. That would not be an unprecedented move among his ilk.

Bourdais finishes with a flourish: ‘And all of these closest [oval] finishes in history… Let’s cut the crap. This is not racing. This is not what I want to see from oval racing. Maybe that kind of danger is what some people came to watch, like the ‘big one’ they talk about in NASCAR. Well, truth is, if you want to see a ‘big one’ in IndyCar racing, you’re going to be witness to a killing. And I don’t think that’s what IndyCar wants. They have a big decision ahead of them, and I hope they make the right one. Tragedies make people wake up and I hope nobody forgets this.’

How about you and your pals cutting the crap, Sebastien? No Indy Car fan I know wants to see any driver hurt or killed. That is not why anyone in their right mind watches Indy Cars. Indy Car fans love ovals, and 1.5 mile ovals will always have a place regardless of the shrieking hysteria unleashed by fear mongering road racers. We DO, however, enjoy seeing close racing with action throughout the field. That has rarely been a problem for professional drivers.

I want the cart crowd to stop trying to gut Indy Car of its very essence. Lose Texas!? Are you out of your goddamned mind? We need to make damned sure Chicagoland returns and that Kentucky is renewed and treated with the respect it deserves.

Cotman, Angstadt and crew also need to stop chasing temporary circuits. That is a long term approach that is no win. This anti-oval frenzy must cease immediately. It has gone well beyond reasonable. It is utterly sickening to see the same idiots trying to topple the sport in such grotesque, self-serving ways. If we are unified, let us work toward BALANCE. An equal number of ovals of all sizes with an equal number of non-ovals. NOT 33% oval/33%road courses/34% temporary circuits, which is a formula for failure. History proves it.



  1. I think your missing the point of his comments. He is not saying that IndyCar should not race on ovals, but 1 1/2 mile high banked ovals.

    Editor’s Note: Actually, I do not believe my has missed the point. I am upset precisely because he wants 1.5 mile ovals off the schedule. It has been hard enough to lose Chicagoland, but I can’t imagine an Indy Car schedule without Kentucky and Texas also. That is just not acceptable.

    Bourdais has won on several ovals including Las Vegas. Unfortunatly, a lot of these tracks have made changes to benifit NASCAR. I have yet to see any driver IRL or CART that has come out and say they think that INDYCAR should race on these types of ovals without major changes.

    Editor’s Note: I can live without a Vegas. I can’t condone losing a Texas. Drivers ought to drive. Not yap.

    The racing on these tracks is like going to the concession go kart track where all the karts go the same speed and the guy who weighs the least wins. It’s not racing. Bourdais also knows what he is talking about. This is a guy that has won in almost everything he has driven including Sportcars,V8’s, and IROC (against a bunch of NASCAR boys).

    Editor’s Note: How many Indy Car races have you attended? The level of ignorance about Indy Car racing is stunning. I acknowledge a good point about spec racing, but it’s the owners that are keeping it going to a large extent. Bourdais has done well in all disciplines except Indy Racing Series machines. He has always been great at running his yap.

    Know lets be clear, when you talk about IndyCar you really mean the IRL.

    Uh, no….I am talking about Indy Car, which evolved from the IRL. It changed significantly the moment they allowed disrespectful boycotters to slither back in after they killed their own series. Twice.

    Tracks like Texas and Chicagoland where never part of USAC or CART prior to the split. They are the legacy of the IRL, a failed idea.

    The further you continue the dumber you sound. The direct descendant of what series is alive and well, and the direct descendant of what series is long dead, twice?

    The fact is that you love to say how CART failed twice, but you ignore some major facts. The IRL never had a season where it didn’t lose a ton of money, fact. If the IRL had been a public company it would have been bankrupt almost from the get go. The Hulman George family with the help of the France family destroyed CART and AOWR.

    Editor’s Note: You have access to the Hulman and Company books, do you? What we have heard, mostly from obsessed, hysterical columnists and fans, are ‘losses in the hundreds of millions.’ People actually in the know, one just this past May, specifically corrected such Internet accountants. Get real.

    The fact is that CART made money in 1998, 1999, and 2000. In 2001, CART lost a major sponcer which resulted in a small lose. They still had 20 races that year with eight ovals including Michigan, California, and Chicago. They had 25 drivers each race, and four engine and two chassis’s. In 2002 they started to self promote some races and took over the production of the TV package and purchased air time.

    Editor’s Note: Wow…with all that success one might think they’d still be around today. Wuh happpened? LOL

    That and Penske and Honda screwing them killed CART. It wasn’t that the product was bad. It was the fight with the IRL, being a publically traded company, and some bad choices at the top. The IRL could keep going as long as Tony was willing to open his checkbook.

    Editor’s Note: Oh, I see. The same Tony George that is seemingly stupid enough not to be able to tie his shoes is also sinister enough to singlehandedly kill cart with a checkbook. The way the simple minds of cart’s most obsessed fans work is God’s own private little mystery.

    The fact is the IRL and CART are both dead. It’s time to move on to hopefully a bigger and better AOW series called the IZOD INDYCAR Series and leave the parania about CART in the past. The fact is if they had the same schedule as the 2001 CART year with the INDY 500 all the Gomers would wet themselves.

    Editor’s Note: ‘Gomers?’ Classy. Mature, too.

    Comment by Brian from NY — November 17, 2011 @ 3:30 am | Reply

  2. Your an idiot! Pure and simple an idiot, every post you make on here proves how big of an idiot you are, my whole family an friends can’t wait to read your next article because you are that big of an idiot….

    MY an idiot? What? That’s quite a promising, mature, borderline illiterate way to begin commentary, young feller. You must be a cart fan.

    1.5 mile oval track are NOT what Indycar is about, if it wasn’t for tony f*#@ing george we would have never raced at these death traps, everyone seems to get it but you, 1.5 mile ovals belong with NASCAR not finely tuned sexy race cars that can easily drive flat,

    Editor’s Note: We get it. You are afraid of 1.5 mile ovals. Stop crying. I do not want the Indy Car Series to do without Chicagoland, Texas or Kentucky. When the cars are not equal (and often when they are) those venues provide spectacular racing. We cannot lose that.

    I race, and If you can go flat through every corner how in the hell do you show your ability!? You don’t, stop trying to push for these death traps, and wake up please!

    Editor’s Note: My thought is that you have never either driven or attended a 1.5 mile oval Indy Car event, ever. If you had you would understand the complete ignorance of the stereotypes your kind is trying to propagate. Grow up.

    Comment by Birel0499 — November 17, 2011 @ 6:34 am | Reply

  3. I agree that there’s a very vocal, quite pissed-off band of malcontented CART enthusiasts still lurking out there who harbor an unnatural hatred of what used to be called the IRL and what is still called Tony George. And I believe that these folks will not feel avenged until INDYCAR has morphed into a carbon-copy of that defunct series. I don’t understand it since TG abdicated and INDYCAR is more CART than IRL anyway, but they are still out there, simmering with illogical resentment.

    But I’m not sure it’s only them on this point. I’m not sure open-wheel cars are meant to race on banked, mile and a half tracks like Vegas. I’m concerned they are too banked, too short and too crowded for these cars. In spite of the entertainment value of tracks like Texas and Chicago, I’m not sure it’s worth the risk now. I want ovals, I want a schedule half booked with ovals, but not if the risk outweighs the reward. I’ll put it this way–if there was a race in Chicago tomorrow (weather aside) I would not attend–and I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t watch it.

    Editor’s Note: Man, I would. I went to every single one of them, and all of them were great. I felt the same way about other, non-1.5 miler venues as well. In most years pre-micromanaged spec, Richmond was utterly great, for example.

    Comment by redcar — November 17, 2011 @ 11:50 am | Reply

  4. One issue is how little experience some of these foreign drivers have on ovals. Another is the municipal faucet. Because they are accepting all of these ride buyers (many with little oval experience), and because they can get the easy municipal money, the league is continuting to move toward the path of least resistance – and moving toward street road courses. These ovals were not a concern 10 and 20 years ago and would not be a concern now except for the drivers and the municipal funds. I think these play a much larger part in what is going on than many people realize.

    I know there are some people who like to watch a street parade (for reasons I’ll never understand as its not racing), but there are not enough of those fans in the US to keep any league like that viable. Like a wounded bear, Indy car may be able to crawl on with the municipality money for a while until it is shut off. When that happens, if current trends do not change, the league will be history.

    Nobody seems to be looking long term. The owners have too much power. They are bringing on the debacle that had already started by 1995 in CART (though Eurocentric CART cultists still deny it). It was their changes in the early and mid 90’s, not the split, that began the big rise of Nascar in the early 90’s and the decline of Indy car. Now these people and their ideas are again back in place. To even be talking about a road race at Indy is sure sign that this league has lost touch with Indy Car history, not to mention common sense.

    Comment by Bob F. — November 17, 2011 @ 3:27 pm | Reply

  5. Okay, one MORE damned time! This series is designed to have balance: it is designed to show off the VERSATILITY of its drivers in that they can race successfully on street circuits, permanent road courses, short ovals, high speed ovals, and superspeedways.

    But here we are again, with some wanting to forego high speed ovals altogether, without ever having seen a wheel turned with the newer, (supposedly) safer car. Most drivers I have talked to insist that if you add powoer and take away some downforce, you make this a “driver’s series” once again. More than that, you don’t have everyone running flat out all the time.

    To tilt the series toward one extreme or the other is an outrage. Maybe if all of the whiny cart-centric haters want to go road/street racing every weekend, they should put up a billion or two of their OWN money and try and do it. When you get right down to it, THAT is what killed CART/CCWS: They ran out of other people’s money.

    UNLIKE the former IRL, the CART/CCWS owners chose NOT to risk their OWN fortunes to continue which, like him or not, Tony George DID. When they didn’t have sufficient sponsor dollars to spend on their ultra high-tech racecars, they folded their tents. Twice.

    I’m growing tired of the “revisionist history” that is being practiced here: The latest being the absurd statement that, “Well, IRL would have gone out of business long ago had not Tony George put his own capital into the venture. Therefore, CART succeeded and IRL failed.” (Bankruptcy court records to the contrary. Boys and girls, it is called CAPITALISM for a reason.)

    As for Sea-Bass and some of the other Euro-wannabes, hey, Bernie Ecclestone has JUST the series for you. Some others, most notably Graham Rahal, have said they want to go racing at Vegas again, and not just on a street circuit.

    Either way, how about we get a little deeper into the testing of the new chassis and engine combinations before we start excluding oval tracks.

    Comment by SkipinSC — November 17, 2011 @ 3:36 pm | Reply

  6. You really should read and comprehend what Bourdais is saying. You also should stop trying to say Indycar fans love strictly ovals, because if that were truly the case, then tony george would be presently running a very successful IRL, which we all know never happened.

    Editor’s Note: Hang on a sec. You are lecturing me on reading comprehension, then encouraging me to stop saying Indy Car fans love strictly ovals? LOL. Evidently I am not alone in the remedial reading comprehension area.

    What you should say, is that YOU enjoy ovals, and stop trying to preach to the rest of us what we should like.

    Editor’s Note: See recommendations about reading comprehension above.

    Seabass is not saying Indycars do not belong ovals, only that the cars should have more horsepower along with less downforce, so that control of the cars are more in the hands of the driver, and that you would have less contrived pack racing.

    Editor’s Note: So he’s OK and would participate in a return to Vegas if they upped the HP and reduced the downforce?

    In regards to pack racing, it can fun to watch, no doubt, but not when it is contrived due to all cars being dumbed down, basically being a spec series.

    Editor’s Note: I actually acknowledged that. I also chided the mostly retarded hysterical shriekers who spend a lot of time propagating that ignorant stereotype but spend precious little time actually watching.

    Most drivers in the series say the same thing, but you conveniently choose to leave that fact out. When it comes to actual racing, i will listen a 4-time champ over a windbag with a blog, any day of the week, especially when that windbag has a biased point of view.

    Editor’s Note: And while you and your driver pals continue propagating ignorant stereotypes, I will continue to support drivers who are actually racers. It’s one thing when a Simona pulls on a pair of panties. She’s a girl. But when one of the cart holdovers gets a pube caught in the silk and starts whining like a little girl, I start reminiscing about the days when drivers had testicles.

    Comment by formerly known as — November 19, 2011 @ 6:24 am | Reply

    • Editor’s Note: Hang on a sec. You are lecturing me on reading comprehension, then encouraging me to stop saying Indy Car fans love strictly ovals? LOL. Evidently I am not alone in the remedial reading comprehension area. Yes sir, that is exactly what i am doing. You read the article, heard what you wanted to (as per usual), and not what was actually said.

      Editor’s Note: Again, I highly recommend remedial comprehension training of some sort for you and your little buddies.

      In regards to encouraging you to stop saying Indycar fans love strictly ovals, are you dense? I see no issues here, just you putting a ridiculous spin to keep away from the issues again. Put the donut down Indy Claus. Yes Dipstickle, you and a few of your fellow Indycar buddies love the ovals, no problems, but that is your opinion, and evidently, alot of Indycar fans do not share your views. The majority want what used to be, a nice mix of short ovals, super speedways, road and street courses. Diversity for the mentally handicapped, such as yourself.

      Editor’s Note: I’ll go slowly. I am on record, several times, of offering the following ‘ideal’ compromise:

      -a 20 race schedule, minimum.
      -Of the 20, 4 would be small ovals, 1 mile or less. There are many from which to choose.
      -3 would be 1.5 milers. I prefer Texas, Chicagoland and Kentucky. Others would work.
      -3 would be big ovals. Indy, then pick among Fontana, Michigan or Pocono.
      -At least five natural terrain road courses.
      -A maximum of five temporary circuit festivals o’ speed.

      Is there any morsel of that with which you are having difficulty grasping?

      Editor’s Note: So he’s OK and would participate in a return to Vegas if they upped the HP and reduced the downforce? Read the article buddy and try to comprehend what he is saying, it is not all that hard to do.

      Editor’s Note: I read it. Sebastien and his cart buddies do not want to race on 1.5 ovals. I want race drivers who do, as part of the mix.

      Editor’s Note: I actually acknowledged that. I also chided the mostly retarded hysterical shriekers who spend a lot of time propagating that ignorant stereotype but spend precious little time actually watching. Propogating an ignorant stereotype? Haha…hard to do so when it is the truth. Do the cars all not run the same horsepower? Do they all basically not run at the same speeds? Do the drivers basically not run foot to the floor for the majority of the race? Sounds like a spec series to me, hardly a stereotype! You have comprehension problems once again blowhard? Stereotype is what you do, lumping fans who do not share your biased opinions, into a group you call lazy and unethical youthful cart fans.

      Editor’s Note: Have you ever actually watched a 1.5 mile oval Indy Car race in person? If you had you would understand how stupid the cacklers look when dismissing them.

      Editor’s Note: And while you and your driver pals continue propagating ignorant stereotypes, I will continue to support drivers who are actually racers. It’s one thing when a Simona pulls on a pair of panties. She’s a girl. But when one of the cart holdovers gets a pube caught in the silk and starts whining like a little girl, I start reminiscing about the days when drivers had testicles. Not many true racers left anymore in Indycars. The days of Foyt’s ,Andretti’s , Sullivan’s, Mears, Mansell, Zanardi, Montoya, Villeneuve, and a younger Tracy etc;, guys who actually had balls, are long gone. Even if they were around, driving these Indycars requires no balls anyways. The only time they do not require said balls, is when they need ample supplies of stupidity, when racing in contrived pack racing at circuits that cost them their lives.

      Editor’s Note: It’s so easy anyone can do it, right? LOL. Idiot.

      I also reminisce about whether or not you have ever had balls yourself. You are exactly what i stated in my last message, a blowhard with a blog, and no balls. You insult everyone, and have shown time and time again, you have no class, right “Alexhoppes”? Keep posting though, my group likes to have comedic material to read. See ya Blowhard!

      Editor’s Note: And you and little obsessed crapper buddies keep on following the sport. IMS and Indy Car thanks you.

      Comment by formerly known as — November 19, 2011 @ 5:32 pm | Reply

  7. If the irl lost the cookie cutters, would be no big deal. With the series averaging 188,000 fans per race( I know….it sounds impressive, got these numbers from an insider. Believe him, not your lieing eyes.) how can they fail?

    Editor’s Note: I see the simplistic way in which your mind obsesses has not changed. Oh, and it has not been called ‘IRL’ for over a year. Try to keep up. Actually, Indy Car would lose its second biggest drawing event. That is not acceptable.

    Barber open test: 5,000
    St. Pete: 55,000
    Birmingham: 55,000
    Long Beach: 65,000
    Brazil: 80,000
    Indy practices, cume: 50,000
    Indy qualifying, cume: 100,000
    Indy Carb Day: 100,000
    Indy Race Day: 280,000
    Texas: 80,000
    Milwaukee: 15,000
    Iowa: 37,000
    Toronto: 45,000
    Edmonton: 35,000
    Mid-Ohio: 65,000
    Loudon: 30,000
    Sonoma: 30,000
    Baltimore: 75,000
    Japan: 50,000
    Kentucky: 30,000
    Las Vegas: 45,000

    Total: 1,327,000

    ….and now, back to your relative ignorance.

    Comment by J.B. — November 19, 2011 @ 9:19 pm | Reply

    • 3.2 million was the word, or was I mistaken? Do I have to go check?

      Editor’s Note: 1,327,000. One million three hundred twenty seven thousand, give or take a few thousand . Please make a note of it.

      Comment by J.B. — November 20, 2011 @ 2:43 am | Reply

      • https://irldefender.wordpress.com/2011/11/11/indy-car-one-step-forward-two-steps-back/#comments

        In there, you clearly state 3.2 million. It would seem to me that based on that list you provided, only three ovals appear in the top 10 drawing courses. Where’s the demand?

        Editor’s Note: Correction. DID. The typo has been corrected and thank you for noticing. The attendance at ovals is not significantly different than non-ovals in most cases.

        Comment by throw some ds on that b!tch — November 20, 2011 @ 5:13 pm

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